The post of CAG is not a cadre post for IA&AS. Second issue is IAS versus IA&AS. No doubt IA&AS as a service is an excellent service, but its aspiring members cannot claim a comparison with IAS officers when it comes to appointment of CAG. IAS officers have wide range of experiences from the lowest ebb in a district to the top posts of Secretary to Government of India.
Former top CAG official KK Srivastava the internationally acclaimed poet and author’s recent book “Esthetic Blend of Flames of the Minds” on “Mann Ki Baat” programme of Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been well appreciated as it brings out the best features of 60 long episodes of “Mann Ki Baat” in just 4,000 words. Srivastava, before retiring as Additional Deputy CAG last month, had a long career, spanning over 36 years, believes an auditor should not venture into the domain of policy auditing as that means an attempt to usurp the role of a public representative. In a freewheeling conversation with The Pioneer’s Swarn Kumar Anand, KK Srivastava talks about his experiences and more…
The Pioneer: On Google, I read articles; your conversations with poets/writers about your fourth book Soliloquy of a Small-Town Uncivil Servant, and articles you wrote. I want to engage you with some articles and your service experiences. Leading a retired life, is spending time an issue?
KKS: No. I spend much time in thinking; I take out books I have not read for decades. Before Covid-19 pandemic, I occasionally used to meet friends from your fraternity over lunch or dinner in Press Club of India. The milieu and discourses with journalists and writers are soothing. I often write articles/reviews. Now retired, I try to spend some time in company of my wife which, for reasons best known to her, she does not seem to relish much.
The Pioneer: I understand you wrote your first review in 2011. You analysed a single, short poem, ‘I’ by a Romanian poetess. It is a long psycho-analysis of a small poem. Please give some background.
KKS: I don’t remember if it was the first review but certainly it was one of the earliest ones. I knew Veronica’s works earlier. She is sober, quiet and perceptive with limited literary output. This poem ran on her imagination of an arriving train at a platform. I analysed it which became longish. In Soliloquy of a Small-Town Uncivil Servant, she went through two sample chapters and made suggestions. In 2013, I introduced her to World Poetry, Canada International. They published her. I don’t know if she still writes or not.
The Pioneer: What prompted you to write ‘Esthetic Blend of Flames of the Minds’ on “Mann Ki Baat” programme of Prime Minister Narendra Modi. It is a mammoth piece which brings out the best features of sixty long episodes of “Mann Ki Baat” in just four thousand words.
KKS: Because it is apolitical and creative. “Mann Ki Baat” is about creativity of not only one mind i.e of that of the Prime Minister but of minds of millions of Indians. It connects Indians to India and India to Indians. Being collective thoughts of millions of Indians, “Mann Ki Baat” represents an unprecedented oneness between the Prime Minister and the people of the country and vice versa. Listening to “Mann Ki Baat” is a must for all public, including civil servants. They ought to know India, its past glory and emerging NEW INDIA through the minds of millions of Indians. It gives physical, mental and spiritual solace.
The Pioneer: You reviewed Vinod Rai’s book, Not Just an Accountant: The Diary of the Nation’s Conscience Keeper in Kitaab Singapore. How did you view the book as a reviewer?
KKS: I read a much lesser publicised book by another CAG, late CG Somiah: The Honest Always Stand Alone. Somiah’s was a complete book: a book of ease, Rai’s was a hurried attempt. As a critic, I have to do justice with a book being critiqued. For me the book: its content, threads, influences and temperament matter. The writer stays invisible. I liked Somiah’s book. It offered his holistic life story. You digest complete, not partially covered periods unless you have the second volume. If you read my review in Kitaab Singapore, you will find in second but concluding paragraph my expectations of the same from Vinod Rai. Six years past, I am not sure if second volume came about his whole life experiences.
The Pioneer: Who are the writers in India you interact with or living Indian writers whose works you read?
KKS: Jayanta Mahapatra, the renowned poet from Cuttack, Odisha. He is above ninety and we have been exchanging hand-written letters for last fifteen years. His mental and intellectual alertness is amazing. Sometimes, I phone him. When he returned Padma Shri in November 2015, I wrote to him why I expected him not to do so. Columnist and writer A Surya Prakash’s books and articles interest me. I critiqued Chief Editor of Indian Express Raj Kamal Jha’s book SHE WILL BUILD HIM A CITY in my fourth book and currently reading his latest book The CITY AND THE SEA. I cherish eccentricity of his hallucinating themes in stylish prose. I planned to call on him after retirement but Covid has vitiated everything. I am also reading Vinod Kumar Shukla’s Hindi poems.
The Pioneer: You had a long career, spanning over thirty-six and half years. You went in capacities from Deputy/Senior Deputy Accountant General, Accountant General, Principal Accountant General, to Pondicherry, Allahabad, Bombay, Ranchi, Jaipur, Rajkot, Delhi as Chief Auditor, New Delhi Municipal Corporation, Gwalior, Thiruvananthapuram and at the end CAG office Delhi and superannuated as Additional Deputy CAG. Your vast experience across the country and varied literary background gives you an enviable position to share your experiences with readers and civil service aspirants.
KKS: I feel amused you took the trouble of seeing my profile. If I saw India, its people, its cultural and intellectual strength, its different shades, it is through the organisation of CAG of India. Mine being a Central service with all India transfer liability, my postings to so many different places taught me uniqueness of Indian people: the oneness within different shades. I could know life people live. I could handle tough associations in places like Allahabad, Ranchi, Rajkot, Gwalior and Thiruvananthapuram. With my growing experience, I could easily relate to staff, their anxieties and strength. When I got posted as Principal Accountant General, Kerala at Thiruvananthapuram, the very next day of my assuming charge, I visited each section, met and shook hands with each and every member of staff. Towards the end, I visited Association room and met members of the association present there. The depressing atmosphere started becoming diminutive immediately. I did this every station I was posted to. It gave me confidence; it gave the staff confidence; it gave a relationship of ease vitally needed to run a big office. Similarly, I had interaction with Principal Secretaries in various States. In retrospect I feel happy to have an augmented life, courtesy learning from experiences of life of thousands of wonderful people.
The Pioneer: Did these transfers never affect your family?
KKS: The family stayed with me throughout.
The Pioneer: We hear various State Governments don’t respond to audit. Which State was most responsive to audit? Please share a few experiences?
KKS: I had cordial relationship particularly with Principal Secretaries (Finance) in every State. It facilitated response from the Government. But Gujarat, where I was stationed at Rajkot, was where officers showed inherent keenness to discuss particularly draft Performance Reviews and that too at very high level. There was an issue. Immediately, after taking over in 2008, I called on the then Chief Secretary who understood issues from me and within a month or so, remedial measures were taken by State Government with detailed work plan for a year in place. Similarly, in 2009, Performance Review on Modernisation of Police Scheme was to be discussed and the then ACS (Home), chaired the meeting spending full half-day in Gandhi Nagar conference room where many senior officers were present. He read each and every line of the draft report himself and requested authorities to respond and give comments/constraints, if any. He wanted me to appreciate and reflect these in the review. I learnt a lot from him during discussion. At the end, both audit and administration were satisfied. I moved from Gujarat but think the review featured in the Audit Report.
Kerala was equally responsive at very high level, though I was heading Accounts Office. Early 2016, perhaps January or February, one evening, ACS (Finance) telephoned me regarding a portion of work of our office and told me to meet Chief Minister without any delay. I sought appointment from him. Next day, it was a State holiday but he called me at his residence. I briefed two other PAsG located at the station and urged them to accompany me. They promptly agreed. Next day, we met the Chief Minister and I explained to him how functioning of that work had improved very significantly in our office and showed him data. My two colleagues supported my contention wholeheartedly. Then he came up to the door where I, folding my hands, said, “Namaste, Sir. Kindly keep our request in view. Our office is performing well.” He looked at me; it was reassuring. That important portion of work stayed with us. On taking over as DG in CAG office, I called on my earlier boss and told her about that episode saying “Ma’am, I did not bother you. I solved it locally.” Appreciating it, she told, “That’s why we call you, KK.” Unfortunately, we lost her sometime back. Normally, I tried to solve issues without flagging these as big issues.
The Pioneer: Recently, when GC Murmu, an IAS officer of 1985 batch, was appointed as CAG, there were talks about his superseding six IA&AS officers (three from 1983 and three from 1984 batch). Is it IAS versus IA&AS issue? Is it discouraging for the officers and organisation?
KKS: When I joined the service at the then Staff College, Shimla, a faculty member explained to us the meaning of the word, “cadre” in the context of IA&AS as a cadre. He clarified that the post of CAG is an ex-cadre post. The post of CAG is not a cadre post for IA&AS. Second issue is IAS versus IA&AS. No doubt IA&AS as a service is an excellent service, but its aspiring members cannot claim a comparison with IAS officers when it comes to appointment of CAG. IAS officers have wide range of experiences from the lowest ebb in a district to the top posts of Secretary to Government of India. They work with different regimes of political leadership which is a big learning opportunity for them. They have public dealings, they meet public, come to grips with people’s grievances on day-to-day basis; they are a part of micro and macro socio-economic problem solving process. They prepare groundwork for political leadership in deciding policies and understand the essentials of policy making. They are certainly better placed as compared to any other service including IA&AS, to occupy the chair of CAG of India. I agree that knowledge of audit and accounts may be beneficial for an outsider CAG, but that knowledge alone is not the sole criterion. Wise people accept immutably universal facts and don’t lament over spilt milk at the last moment.
The Pioneer: What about the supersession of six IA&AS officers?
KKS: My answer is embedded above. I will clarify my understanding once more. Supersession is within a particular service. Supersession is never with reference to other services. It is unbelievable that an IA&AS officer of 1983 batch has been superseded by an IAS officer of 1985 batch, though it is quite possible and a fact an I A&AS officer of 1983 batch being successfully superseded by IA&AS officers of 1985 batch and who knows it better than me. Hence, GC Murmu has superseded no IA&AS officer. The post of CAG is a constitutional post and the Prime Minister has the final word on his selection. I visited GC Murmu’s Wikipedia page. Though it might seem preposterous on my part to say so, in my view, he is a very suitable selection for the post of present CAG and seems to be a down to earth man. Organisation needs such a CAG.
The Pioneer: It is alleged that there is lack of transparency in selection of CAG. How would you react?
KKS: First, I have no means to ascertain whether the process is transparent or not. Second, as I understand this issue has also seen judicial scrutiny in the past. Third, if certain individuals and groups think process is non-transparent, they should take timely and appropriate steps to elevate discussion, debates to higher plateau.
The Pioneer: Why only IAS officers? Why not other professionals like economists, chartered accountants, academics, scientists or even journalists?
KKS: I tend to agree. This should be debated in various forums.
The Pioneer: As a writer, your perception of issues will have a more matured interpretative value. A person can draw meaningful conclusions from your views. What are your suggestions to new CAG?
KKS: I am not sanguine if others will be so sure of what you say but still I will share my honest views. My point of view is CAG of India means he is CAG for 138 crore Indians. Audit Reports get processed and discussed through Public Accounts Committees and COPU. That is a fine arrangement constitutionally mandated. We chalk out audit plans for both Centre and States. I don’t find any say by even a segment of Indian population on their suggestions. There is Audit Advisory Committee where experts are invited but these experts are not substitutes for 138 crore people. Therefore, my first suggestion to new CAG will be to open its website for one month in advance before the process of preparation of Audit Plans begins. During that month, public should be free to offer suggestions for topics to be covered in audit in next audit cycle. It will have two advantages. First, when nation is aiming to become an inclusive society, audit should open its gate to inclusion of nation’s population. Let people express themselves. CAG’s decision on audit plans will be final. Second, it will increase awareness in public about this august institution which is not there at present as it should be. When Sustainable Development Goals were being finalised, views were called from across countries through its website.
Second, last month, I wrote an article Kiran raises hopes for a robust New India. Late evening of the day article appeared, I got a call from a Professor of Psychiatry, AIIMS who had read the article. He invited me to join as a panelist for a webinar on “India’s first Mental Health Access Summit”, organised by AIIMS in collaboration with Mental Health Foundation, India. I participated in it on 4th of this month. I shared my little bit with mental health professionals. The picture of mental health issues that came during panel discussion was alarming.
An All India Performance Review on Assessment of extent of mental disorders, population affected, availability of infrastructure and preparedness to handle this invading behemoth is the need of the hour. This report will be very handy to Government, Medical Institutes, and NGOs generating keenness in Public Accounts Committee and public. I am not sure if this exercise was done in recent past. CAG may like to consider it.
The Pioneer: I came across an interesting set of statistics. I saw profile of some officers in different batches from 1981 to 1990. There were/are some officers who stayed/are staying in Delhi and adjacent States like Jaipur, Chandigarh, Faridabad or even Noida for 20/25 years, including deputation period in different spells. They had/have repeated postings in Delhi/CAG office. A few of them from this group went abroad for posting. This trend is seen even in case of currently serving officers. There are clusters of some officers having these three commonalities in selected batches spending almost 60 to 70 per cent of their service in Delhi and around places alone? It seems there is an elite group. Does it not affect efficiency?
KKS: You remind me of a Hindi proverb, “Haath Kangan ko Arsi Kaya.” The same thing has been felt by a majority of IA&AS officers over last so many years, even decades. Statistics is cited and statistics does not tell lie. Your observation is correct. It might affect efficiency at various levels.
The Pioneer: What are the expectations from new CAG in this respect?
KKS: New CAG may like to look into trends flagged. He may like to consider institutionalising steps as he deems necessary so that these end and corrective measures are taken. The new CAG seems to be a down to earth man.
The Pioneer: There have been media reports about delay in finalisation of audit reports in recent past. Any comments?
KKS: During last about three years before retirement, I had nothing to do with processing of audit reports. Therefore, I cannot answer your question.
The Pioneer: Any comments on delay in placing the reports in Parliament/ Assemblies.
KKS: The decision to place the reports has to be taken by the Government. The CAG has no role in it. His role ends with sending the reports to the President and Governors with the request to cause these to be laid in Parliament/State Assembly.
The Pioneer: Some audit reports become controversial. Why?
KKS: Late ST Kenghe was Director of IA&AS Staff College, Shimla when I was a probationer. He was a scholar. He quoted in Sanskrit from Vedas and Upanishads while talking to probationers. He was fond of saying, “Act as an auditor but don’t adopt holier than thou attitude”. He wrote the same thing in an article published in a book during late TN Chaturvedi’s period.
Two lessons emerge from above. An auditor should never think he is a paragon of virtue. Second his reports should speak, if at all necessary. Controversies arise if an auditor talks about his “achievements”. An audit report is a consequence of incessant hard work of more than hundred staff/officers. It should be kept in view. If these two criteria are respected, Reports will be respected.
The Pioneer: There were issues in the past weather an auditor can audit policies. What are your views and what role do you envisage for audit in current times?
KKS: I think an auditor should not venture into domain of policy auditing, Let me explain how I look at it. Political parties when they go to elections, go with their manifesto: a set of promises made to people. When a party comes to power, in order to convert the manifesto into action, they decide policies. Thus, a policy links public representatives and people through manifesto. Once an auditor tries to audit policies, he starts meddling with this link and thereby tries to usurp the role of a public representative which is barred in constitution. But he can always audit the outcome of policy which is normally done. Coming to the role of audit in current times, late CG Somiah, the then CAG’s advocacy “Audit as an aid to administration” should be respected and followed. Audit should facilitate reforms undertaken by Government and help in formation of a NEW INDIA.
The Pioneer: Any advice to young IA&AS officers?
KKS: It is said of the community of auditors they never welcome advice to them but are first to offer unsolicited advice to others. It’s in lighter vein. Audit organisation has intelligent and hardworking young officers. They should work for the organisation which has a long, glorious history. They should not suffer from ‘fixity and rigidity’ and should contribute to ‘collective personality’ of IA&AS and thereby strengthen the hands of CAG of India. Therefore, they should ponder over and learn from these lines of Salman Rushdie’s THE GOLDEN HOUSE, “In these our degenerate times, men bent on nothing but vainglory and personal gain-hollow, bombastic men for whom nothing is off-limits if it advances their pretty cause… and calling all who oppose them liars, envious, little people, stupid people, stiffs, and in a precise reversal of the truth, dishonest and corrupt.” My best wishes to them.
The Pioneer: Do you have any plans to write your autobiography?
KKS: The bridge is not visible to me. We will cross it if it ever comes.
